Video Interview: Gaza shows UNSC's veto power is destablising global security.
Transcript
0:00
normite hydromite welcome i'm bruce
0:03
monroe and with me is international
0:05
relations specialist professor robert
0:07
patman and this is global
0:13
insight israel's government is pressing
0:15
ahead with its military campaign to take
0:18
total control of
0:19
gaza but with the death toll climbing
0:22
towards
0:23
55,000 will israeli prime minister
0:26
benjamin netanyahu heed international
0:30
opposition or is israel headed towards
0:32
becoming a pariah state
0:35
welcome robert morning bruce
0:38
some aid has started getting into gaza
0:40
again but the military offensive
0:43
continues what's the latest we
0:46
understand uh that in the last uh two
0:48
days um something like 90 humanitarian
0:52
aid trucks have got through we also
0:54
understand that yesterday
0:57
um bakeries restarted some bakeries in
1:00
gaza restarted their operations u flour
1:03
was delivered but there is critical
1:05
medical assistance that is still not
1:08
being delivered or delivered in
1:11
quantities that are not going to make a
1:13
huge difference and the un estimates
1:15
that at the moment gaza needs at least
1:19
the 500 trucks it was getting daily
1:22
before the terrorist attack on israel on
1:25
the 7th of october uh 2023 the hamas
1:30
attack of 7th of october 2023 which
1:33
resulted in 1,200 people being killed
1:35
and another 251 taken hostage that was
1:39
terrible but what israel has done since
1:42
seems a long way away from its
1:44
traditional value of an eye for an eye
1:46
that was supposed to limit or prevent
1:50
retribution from
1:51
spiraling what is netanyahu's goal well
1:55
according to messy um the goal is pretty
1:58
plain that israel wants to take control
2:01
of gaza um and also it's uh his
2:05
government his far-right coalition
2:07
government have announced plans to annex
2:10
west bank
2:12
um in
2:14
2025 um both of these moves are
2:17
illegal um so it's i think the p you
2:22
know the the israeli government is quite
2:24
clear that essentially it wants to
2:28
expand the boundaries of
2:30
israel at the expense of the
2:32
palestinians where they live um also uh
2:37
there is a another worrying development
2:39
is that both israel and the united
2:42
states plan to establish their own
2:45
humanitarian
2:47
um aid distribution operation in the
2:50
near future that's strongly opposed by
2:53
the un the un is widely seen as
2:55
impartial except by israel which doesn't
2:58
you know waste any opportunity to
3:00
rubbish and condemn the un um but for
3:05
many aid organization that's a worrying
3:08
step because it appears that the
3:10
distribution of aid if it's exclusively
3:12
in the hands of israel and the us these
3:15
are not disinterested observers mr trump
3:19
has already said that he has no problems
3:22
with the displacement of the
3:23
palestinians from gaza in fact uh when
3:26
he made that proposal to own gaza he did
3:29
say the palestinians would have to be
3:31
displaced from that area so i i think
3:34
that plan
3:36
um is causing great deal of
3:38
constonnation because there is a fear
3:40
that food will only be available in the
3:44
areas where the us and israel want to
3:47
give food and indeed um will only give
3:50
it to food to certain people traditional
3:53
western values are built on treating
3:54
others how you want to be treated
3:57
what has the western response been to
3:59
what's happening in gaza pretty
4:02
weak we're the most disappointing thing
4:05
about this situation well it's not the
4:08
most disappointing it's one of the
4:10
disappointing features has been the
4:12
inability of liberal democracies
4:16
uh to live up to the values and ideals
4:18
that they have about the rule of law
4:22
internationally and um uh with the
4:26
exception of a few countries spain
4:28
ireland and to some degree new zealand
4:31
uh have been pretty consistent on the
4:33
need for an immediate ceasefire and a
4:35
two-state solution
4:37
other countries like germany
4:40
um also the united kingdom they are
4:44
becoming increasingly concerned about
4:46
the food situation but for much of the
4:48
last 18 months have continued to arm um
4:52
israel's and so in you know in short um
4:57
they have contributed or been complicit
4:59
and of course the united states has
5:01
provided about four-fifths of the
5:02
munitions that have killed the near
5:05
54,000 people in gaza i think the most
5:10
alarming thing about this has been that
5:13
liberal democracies have not put enough
5:16
pressure until recently on israel to
5:19
make a distinction between civilian and
5:22
military targets and it was quite clear
5:24
by the end of october
5:27
2023 that israel was not conducting a
5:30
classic counterterrorist campaign uh if
5:33
you if you talk to military specialists
5:35
um they will tell you that one of the
5:37
hallmarks of an effective
5:38
counterterrorist campaign is to make
5:41
sure that you only target those
5:42
responsible for terrorist acts you
5:45
simply as a matter of fact do not target
5:48
innocent civilians well 19,000 children
5:52
have been killed since the 7th of
5:54
october and by definition according to
5:56
the state department they're not members
5:58
of hamas so this is collateral damage on
6:02
a colossal scale and it's a terrible
6:05
failure i think of liberal democracies
6:08
to live up to the ideals that they
6:10
articulate and um there's another big
6:13
failure here because i said the liberal
6:14
democracies haven't got it on their own
6:15
the biggest failure of all has been the
6:18
failure of the un security council to
6:20
fulfill its formal responsibility to
6:22
ensure peace and security in a region
6:26
like gaza and we all know the reason for
6:29
that and we've discussed it many times
6:32
um the reason for that is that five
6:33
countries have the veto and one of them
6:35
hasn't hesitate to use it so we've had a
6:38
situation where the un security council
6:42
has been stymied in its efforts to bring
6:45
a ceasefire and effectively contributed
6:48
to the perpetuation of a conflict with
6:51
savage consequences uh for people who
6:54
are not members of hamas or involved in
6:56
the attack on israel so you know i think
6:59
when this when there is a ceasefire at
7:02
some
7:03
point there has to be i'd like to see
7:06
new zealand show a bit of leadership on
7:08
this issue there has to be a really hard
7:10
rethink about how long can we have this
7:14
situation where five countries on the
7:16
planet decide matters of war on peace
7:19
for everyone this is completely
7:21
unacceptable in the 21st century and i
7:24
would think that countries like new
7:25
zealand australia should be leading the
7:27
charge to get the reform of the un
7:29
security council so that the veto cannot
7:33
be exercised in this in this way because
7:36
it's clearly an abuse of power in the
7:39
meantime what does this mean is
7:41
netanyahu simply going to be able to
7:43
continue what he's doing
7:45
well the united states is a key player
7:47
in all this and uh the united states uh
7:50
uh at the moment mr trump has had
7:52
strained relations with netanyahu he
7:55
recently during his visit to the middle
7:56
east didn't visit israel he also had
7:58
direct negotiations with hamas to get
8:01
the return of an american israeli
8:05
citizen um and i'm not sure he shares uh
8:09
netanyah the messianic vision of the
8:13
netanyahu government uh for the
8:16
occupation of palestinian territories
8:19
but he's very pragmatic and he seems
8:23
completely committed to israel um on his
8:27
own terms and um the fact that he's
8:30
organizing with israel to take charge of
8:32
the humanitarian operation
8:34
um and effectively sidelining the un it
8:37
only confirms what we already thought
8:39
about mr trump he does not like
8:41
international institutions he doesn't
8:43
like
8:43
multilateralism he likes uh the use of
8:46
power and so um in the short term it's
8:50
difficult to see how pressure can be
8:53
mounted against netanyahu there have
8:56
been some signs this week that things
8:57
might change um the three and the uk and
9:03
um a number of other countries i think
9:04
it was u canada as well uh indicated
9:09
that they were completely dissatisfied
9:11
with um the aid efforts or the lack of
9:14
them by israel we have a situation here
9:17
bruce where we have a humanitarian
9:19
blockade for the last three or since
9:22
early
9:23
march and um everybody just seems to
9:26
accept that we didn't accept that
9:29
situation when the soviet union imposed
9:32
a blockade on berlin an airlift was
9:35
organized one of the interesting things
9:38
about this situation is there doesn't
9:39
seem to be any political will amongst
9:41
arab countries to drop food or to take
9:44
ways of circumventing this
9:47
blockade um so it it it you know it's
9:50
it's difficult to be optimistic um there
9:53
are signs that liberal democracies as i
9:56
said before are trying to apply some
9:58
belated pressure to netanyahu the eu has
10:01
the capacity to imply apply real
10:04
pressure because it's the biggest trade
10:06
one of the biggest trade partners of
10:08
israel and uh it has real clout
10:11
economically but again the eu is divided
10:14
on this germany's already said any
10:16
sanctions against israel's off the table
10:19
so it's difficult to see how they can
10:21
speak with one voice in that what we are
10:23
seeing and i our foreign minister mr
10:26
peters alluded to this recently um new
10:29
zealand was one of 22 countries which
10:32
said two things must be done immediately
10:34
that is that there must be um no
10:36
restrictions on humanitarian aid and it
10:39
must happen
10:40
quickly um and uh that was a pretty firm
10:44
statement for 22 countries but the
10:46
question is critics will say well that's
10:48
all talk what are you going to do about
10:50
it and uh when it comes to hurting
10:54
israel i'm not suggesting they should be
10:56
hurt i'm just saying what what can you
10:59
do to make a country change its mind
11:02
when it's applying a humanitarian
11:05
blockade which is having disastrous
11:08
consequences for a population many of
11:10
whom have nothing to do with hamas
11:13
um you you realize the international
11:15
community is short of options and again
11:17
you have to come back to the
11:19
unfortunately the failure the lack of an
11:21
authorative international
11:23
organization um so yeah i mean it's very
11:27
difficult to be optimistic at the moment
11:29
bruce uh it seems like to come back to
11:31
your question that mr netanyahu
11:35
um will probably continue as he has been
11:37
and there has been an incident in
11:39
washington in the last couple of days
11:41
where unfortunately two members of the
11:44
israeli embassy in washington were
11:47
killed you know this is to me this is uh
11:51
very counterproductive because uh these
11:54
are public servants they they may even
11:55
disagree with the policies of the
11:57
government they serve this happens um
12:00
and unfortunately they they've been
12:02
targeted by someone chanting free
12:04
palestine well the effects of that you
12:08
know killing is likely to have
12:10
unfortunately adverse effects for the
12:12
population in gaza who are palestinian
12:16
so it's it's difficult to be optimistic
12:18
at the moment i would like to see
12:21
smaller countries and middle powers
12:23
speaking up more to try to get this
12:26
situation resolved look mr netanyahu you
12:29
know as an old as an old saying in
12:32
politics and and sport you're only as
12:34
good as your opponents allow you to be
12:37
and in a s in short um those who
12:40
actually disagree with mr netanyahu's
12:42
approach to this problem are are still
12:45
not doing much to back up their talk so
12:48
and it's difficult to see where that
12:50
action is going to come from so at the
12:51
moment um it it looks like the situation
12:55
is going to get worse before it gets
12:56
better unfortunately
12:58
thank you robert and thank you for
13:00
watching catch us next time on global
13:03
insight
13:06
[Music]
0:00
normite hydromite welcome i'm bruce
0:03
monroe and with me is international
0:05
relations specialist professor robert
0:07
patman and this is global
0:13
insight israel's government is pressing
0:15
ahead with its military campaign to take
0:18
total control of
0:19
gaza but with the death toll climbing
0:22
towards
0:23
55,000 will israeli prime minister
0:26
benjamin netanyahu heed international
0:30
opposition or is israel headed towards
0:32
becoming a pariah state
0:35
welcome robert morning bruce
0:38
some aid has started getting into gaza
0:40
again but the military offensive
0:43
continues what's the latest we
0:46
understand uh that in the last uh two
0:48
days um something like 90 humanitarian
0:52
aid trucks have got through we also
0:54
understand that yesterday
0:57
um bakeries restarted some bakeries in
1:00
gaza restarted their operations u flour
1:03
was delivered but there is critical
1:05
medical assistance that is still not
1:08
being delivered or delivered in
1:11
quantities that are not going to make a
1:13
huge difference and the un estimates
1:15
that at the moment gaza needs at least
1:19
the 500 trucks it was getting daily
1:22
before the terrorist attack on israel on
1:25
the 7th of october uh 2023 the hamas
1:30
attack of 7th of october 2023 which
1:33
resulted in 1,200 people being killed
1:35
and another 251 taken hostage that was
1:39
terrible but what israel has done since
1:42
seems a long way away from its
1:44
traditional value of an eye for an eye
1:46
that was supposed to limit or prevent
1:50
retribution from
1:51
spiraling what is netanyahu's goal well
1:55
according to messy um the goal is pretty
1:58
plain that israel wants to take control
2:01
of gaza um and also it's uh his
2:05
government his far-right coalition
2:07
government have announced plans to annex
2:10
west bank
2:12
um in
2:14
2025 um both of these moves are
2:17
illegal um so it's i think the p you
2:22
know the the israeli government is quite
2:24
clear that essentially it wants to
2:28
expand the boundaries of
2:30
israel at the expense of the
2:32
palestinians where they live um also uh
2:37
there is a another worrying development
2:39
is that both israel and the united
2:42
states plan to establish their own
2:45
humanitarian
2:47
um aid distribution operation in the
2:50
near future that's strongly opposed by
2:53
the un the un is widely seen as
2:55
impartial except by israel which doesn't
2:58
you know waste any opportunity to
3:00
rubbish and condemn the un um but for
3:05
many aid organization that's a worrying
3:08
step because it appears that the
3:10
distribution of aid if it's exclusively
3:12
in the hands of israel and the us these
3:15
are not disinterested observers mr trump
3:19
has already said that he has no problems
3:22
with the displacement of the
3:23
palestinians from gaza in fact uh when
3:26
he made that proposal to own gaza he did
3:29
say the palestinians would have to be
3:31
displaced from that area so i i think
3:34
that plan
3:36
um is causing great deal of
3:38
constonnation because there is a fear
3:40
that food will only be available in the
3:44
areas where the us and israel want to
3:47
give food and indeed um will only give
3:50
it to food to certain people traditional
3:53
western values are built on treating
3:54
others how you want to be treated
3:57
what has the western response been to
3:59
what's happening in gaza pretty
4:02
weak we're the most disappointing thing
4:05
about this situation well it's not the
4:08
most disappointing it's one of the
4:10
disappointing features has been the
4:12
inability of liberal democracies
4:16
uh to live up to the values and ideals
4:18
that they have about the rule of law
4:22
internationally and um uh with the
4:26
exception of a few countries spain
4:28
ireland and to some degree new zealand
4:31
uh have been pretty consistent on the
4:33
need for an immediate ceasefire and a
4:35
two-state solution
4:37
other countries like germany
4:40
um also the united kingdom they are
4:44
becoming increasingly concerned about
4:46
the food situation but for much of the
4:48
last 18 months have continued to arm um
4:52
israel's and so in you know in short um
4:57
they have contributed or been complicit
4:59
and of course the united states has
5:01
provided about four-fifths of the
5:02
munitions that have killed the near
5:05
54,000 people in gaza i think the most
5:10
alarming thing about this has been that
5:13
liberal democracies have not put enough
5:16
pressure until recently on israel to
5:19
make a distinction between civilian and
5:22
military targets and it was quite clear
5:24
by the end of october
5:27
2023 that israel was not conducting a
5:30
classic counterterrorist campaign uh if
5:33
you if you talk to military specialists
5:35
um they will tell you that one of the
5:37
hallmarks of an effective
5:38
counterterrorist campaign is to make
5:41
sure that you only target those
5:42
responsible for terrorist acts you
5:45
simply as a matter of fact do not target
5:48
innocent civilians well 19,000 children
5:52
have been killed since the 7th of
5:54
october and by definition according to
5:56
the state department they're not members
5:58
of hamas so this is collateral damage on
6:02
a colossal scale and it's a terrible
6:05
failure i think of liberal democracies
6:08
to live up to the ideals that they
6:10
articulate and um there's another big
6:13
failure here because i said the liberal
6:14
democracies haven't got it on their own
6:15
the biggest failure of all has been the
6:18
failure of the un security council to
6:20
fulfill its formal responsibility to
6:22
ensure peace and security in a region
6:26
like gaza and we all know the reason for
6:29
that and we've discussed it many times
6:32
um the reason for that is that five
6:33
countries have the veto and one of them
6:35
hasn't hesitate to use it so we've had a
6:38
situation where the un security council
6:42
has been stymied in its efforts to bring
6:45
a ceasefire and effectively contributed
6:48
to the perpetuation of a conflict with
6:51
savage consequences uh for people who
6:54
are not members of hamas or involved in
6:56
the attack on israel so you know i think
6:59
when this when there is a ceasefire at
7:02
some
7:03
point there has to be i'd like to see
7:06
new zealand show a bit of leadership on
7:08
this issue there has to be a really hard
7:10
rethink about how long can we have this
7:14
situation where five countries on the
7:16
planet decide matters of war on peace
7:19
for everyone this is completely
7:21
unacceptable in the 21st century and i
7:24
would think that countries like new
7:25
zealand australia should be leading the
7:27
charge to get the reform of the un
7:29
security council so that the veto cannot
7:33
be exercised in this in this way because
7:36
it's clearly an abuse of power in the
7:39
meantime what does this mean is
7:41
netanyahu simply going to be able to
7:43
continue what he's doing
7:45
well the united states is a key player
7:47
in all this and uh the united states uh
7:50
uh at the moment mr trump has had
7:52
strained relations with netanyahu he
7:55
recently during his visit to the middle
7:56
east didn't visit israel he also had
7:58
direct negotiations with hamas to get
8:01
the return of an american israeli
8:05
citizen um and i'm not sure he shares uh
8:09
netanyah the messianic vision of the
8:13
netanyahu government uh for the
8:16
occupation of palestinian territories
8:19
but he's very pragmatic and he seems
8:23
completely committed to israel um on his
8:27
own terms and um the fact that he's
8:30
organizing with israel to take charge of
8:32
the humanitarian operation
8:34
um and effectively sidelining the un it
8:37
only confirms what we already thought
8:39
about mr trump he does not like
8:41
international institutions he doesn't
8:43
like
8:43
multilateralism he likes uh the use of
8:46
power and so um in the short term it's
8:50
difficult to see how pressure can be
8:53
mounted against netanyahu there have
8:56
been some signs this week that things
8:57
might change um the three and the uk and
9:03
um a number of other countries i think
9:04
it was u canada as well uh indicated
9:09
that they were completely dissatisfied
9:11
with um the aid efforts or the lack of
9:14
them by israel we have a situation here
9:17
bruce where we have a humanitarian
9:19
blockade for the last three or since
9:22
early
9:23
march and um everybody just seems to
9:26
accept that we didn't accept that
9:29
situation when the soviet union imposed
9:32
a blockade on berlin an airlift was
9:35
organized one of the interesting things
9:38
about this situation is there doesn't
9:39
seem to be any political will amongst
9:41
arab countries to drop food or to take
9:44
ways of circumventing this
9:47
blockade um so it it it you know it's
9:50
it's difficult to be optimistic um there
9:53
are signs that liberal democracies as i
9:56
said before are trying to apply some
9:58
belated pressure to netanyahu the eu has
10:01
the capacity to imply apply real
10:04
pressure because it's the biggest trade
10:06
one of the biggest trade partners of
10:08
israel and uh it has real clout
10:11
economically but again the eu is divided
10:14
on this germany's already said any
10:16
sanctions against israel's off the table
10:19
so it's difficult to see how they can
10:21
speak with one voice in that what we are
10:23
seeing and i our foreign minister mr
10:26
peters alluded to this recently um new
10:29
zealand was one of 22 countries which
10:32
said two things must be done immediately
10:34
that is that there must be um no
10:36
restrictions on humanitarian aid and it
10:39
must happen
10:40
quickly um and uh that was a pretty firm
10:44
statement for 22 countries but the
10:46
question is critics will say well that's
10:48
all talk what are you going to do about
10:50
it and uh when it comes to hurting
10:54
israel i'm not suggesting they should be
10:56
hurt i'm just saying what what can you
10:59
do to make a country change its mind
11:02
when it's applying a humanitarian
11:05
blockade which is having disastrous
11:08
consequences for a population many of
11:10
whom have nothing to do with hamas
11:13
um you you realize the international
11:15
community is short of options and again
11:17
you have to come back to the
11:19
unfortunately the failure the lack of an
11:21
authorative international
11:23
organization um so yeah i mean it's very
11:27
difficult to be optimistic at the moment
11:29
bruce uh it seems like to come back to
11:31
your question that mr netanyahu
11:35
um will probably continue as he has been
11:37
and there has been an incident in
11:39
washington in the last couple of days
11:41
where unfortunately two members of the
11:44
israeli embassy in washington were
11:47
killed you know this is to me this is uh
11:51
very counterproductive because uh these
11:54
are public servants they they may even
11:55
disagree with the policies of the
11:57
government they serve this happens um
12:00
and unfortunately they they've been
12:02
targeted by someone chanting free
12:04
palestine well the effects of that you
12:08
know killing is likely to have
12:10
unfortunately adverse effects for the
12:12
population in gaza who are palestinian
12:16
so it's it's difficult to be optimistic
12:18
at the moment i would like to see
12:21
smaller countries and middle powers
12:23
speaking up more to try to get this
12:26
situation resolved look mr netanyahu you
12:29
know as an old as an old saying in
12:32
politics and and sport you're only as
12:34
good as your opponents allow you to be
12:37
and in a s in short um those who
12:40
actually disagree with mr netanyahu's
12:42
approach to this problem are are still
12:45
not doing much to back up their talk so
12:48
and it's difficult to see where that
12:50
action is going to come from so at the
12:51
moment um it it looks like the situation
12:55
is going to get worse before it gets
12:56
better unfortunately
12:58
thank you robert and thank you for
13:00
watching catch us next time on global
13:03
insight
13:06
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